A Mending Shift

a bird sings, not because if has an answer to give, but because it has a song to sing … this is my song

God Does Things We Would Never Do: Francis Chan and Hell

I love Francis Chan. Seriously, I do.

I grew up listening to Francis at Hume Lake Summer Camps and so he has a special spot in my heart. He is eloquent in speech, very persuasive and has a very sincere and genuine heart. He is quite passionate about what he believes, but conveys it in a soft, gentle way (which seems to be rare these days). Francis is also one of the best storytellers I’ve heard. You can get a sense of who he is with this latest video he made about hell [RSS see video below]:

[This video seems to be in reaction to Rob Bell's book Love Wins and an overview of Francis Chan's upcoming book Erasing Hell]

Though I have a deep respect for Francis and I totally understand where he is coming from (I too have given many similar talks in the past), I disagree with his conclusions and how he arrived at them. Namely when he says that when it comes to God banishing humans to Hell that there are times when God does stuff that we would never do (or even THINK of doing). He quotes a passage in Isaiah 55 where God says:

“For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, “declares the LORD. “As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.”

And so the thinking goes, “This notion of God sending billions of people to hell just doesn’t sit well with me, my understanding of justice or love, and is something I would never ever do or even think of doing. But, hey, God’s ways are not my ways and God’s thoughts are not my thoughts…who am I to argue that God just might do such an outrageously horrible thing?” I have heard this retort a lot lately around the discussion of Hell. Even in deeply honest conversations when some Christians cannot stomach the notion of Hell, they simply say, “But God’s ways are higher than my ways.”

And yet the reverse can also be applied, can it not? When people say that God will ultimately redeem and restore all of creation and every single human being, can they not also say, “Man, I would NEVER think of doing that…it goes against the grain of what I would do, but God’s ways are not my ways and God’s thoughts are not my thoughts, so who am I to argue that God just might do such an outrageously loving thing?”

So then I have to look at which way is HIGHER than my way. Is sending billions to Hell higher than what I would do, or is it lower? Or is redeeming all things and people higher that what I would do? To me, it seems like a much lower and wicked road to condemn billions to a literal hell. It seems like a much higher and divine road to redeem billions of people through the power of love itself.  To me, that garnishes much more praise because it IS a higher thing than I would do.

And then I look at the slant or trajectory of Isaiah 55, where things are said like, “Surely you will summon nations you know not, and nations you do not know will come running to you,” and “[my word] will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it. You will go out in joy and be led forth in peace…” That God’s higher ways in this passage seem to be referring to a positive thing, not a negative one. A peaceful one, not a dreadful one. Where God’s words and his will WILL be accomplished when God says:

“For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through Him.” (not might be)

“And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.” (not might with some)

“For as it is written, “As I live“, says the Lord, “every knee shall bow to me [ie. repentance], and every tongue shall give praise to God [i.e. worship]” (on my life I say…)

“This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.” (that God will achieve his purposes)

That just perhaps, God’s “higher ways” do not condone a crazy, evil notion such as hell, but that God’s “higher ways” condones a crazy, loving notion of God loving and restoring all of his kids.

That, yes, God would do something that we would never do, or even think of doing, namely condemning no one to hell for eternity, rather than most.

[ADDED: Here is a good article about Francis' video from a philosophical perspective]

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This entry was posted by on Tuesday, May 24th, 2011 at 10:02 am and is filed under Bible, blessing, Christianity, church, forgiveness, freedom, God, grace, Hell, Jesus, justice, Kingdom of God, love, Thankfulness, theology, transformation, truth, video. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site.

About The Author

Jeromy Johnson
I live in Folsom, CA, with my wife, Jennifer, and three kids. I am surrounded by and cared for deeply by some great friends. Their love for me is truly a moonlit reflection of Papa's love, and for that, I am deeply blessed and grateful.

Comments

  • David Dearinger

    My thoughts are summed up perfectly by one of his quotes during this video, “… at that moment you’re actually putting God’s actions in submission to your reasoning.” (about 4:20)  I appreciate very much the discussion you generate through your blog and it’s good for people to engage in this discussion to challenge their beliefs, and also to recognize our inability to fully understand God.  It’s good to have these discussions, but for any of us to think that we’re all knowing about any of these topics is extremely misguided, as I’ve been convicted of on some levels. 

    While we certainly don’t share some of the same conclusions, I think we can agree that God’s ways are so much bigger than our own and the difference of opinion in these discussions serve as reflection of that.  Chan’s reference to Romans 9 and referring to us being clay trying to describe the potter to the clay around us is a perfect fit.  As he says “… we can only hope that the potter reveals something to us about himself so we can share that with the clay around us.”

  • Charlie

    Jeromy, I must respectfully disagree with you. I must say that I agree with Francis on this one, even with having never read the book he’s going to release (and I plan on reading it). Even in his little blurb, he helped fill in some of the gaps I was seeking to fill in my thought process along these lines.

    In reference to your scripture usage…

    Further on in thatgospel, Jesus also says that he WILL judge the world. The same truth that saves will also judge. He’s not judging people at that time in that particular passage, but he says that he WILL judge  on the day of judgment. To reject him is to reject God, to spurn life and light and invite judgment.

    In context: “Then Jesus cried out, “Whoever believes in me does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me. The one who looks at me is seeing the one who sent me. I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness.“If anyone hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge that
    person. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my
    words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day. For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken. I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say.”
    “Draw all men” simply referred to the notion that neither his death nor the gospel which issues from it is limited, meaning it’s for all people. It’s a drawing power that’s available to all, much like a bug being drawn to a light. But God is clear that some will reject it and will be lost (see other gospels for that).

    In context: “Jesus said, “This voice was for your benefit, not mine. Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” He said this to show the kind of death he was going to die.

    “every knee shall bow” is not repentance, it’s a recognition of authority. “every tongue will confess and give praise” again is a recognition of authority, just as it would have been proper to greet a king by saying “Hail Caesar! Long live the king!”

    In context: “”You, then, why do you judge your brother or sister? Or why do you treat
    them with contempt? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat.  It is written:
       “‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord, ‘every knee will bow before me;    every tongue will acknowledge God.’”

     So then, each of us will give an account of ourselves to God. Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up
    your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in the way of a
    brother or sister.”

    “who WANTS all people to be saved” I have yet to run across a clear, concise passage where God speaks through authors and says “I’m going to save everyone regardless of their choices in life.” He DESIRES this for all people, but he can’t force anyone to do so (i.e. free will and the capacity to accept or reject the love and forgiveness offered in Christ).

    In context: “I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people—  for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time. And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am
    telling the truth, I am not lying—and a true and faithful teacher of the
    Gentiles.

    Our view of this has to come from the Bible and from the words of God as a whole, not lifted and proven based on a topic. It’s true that God’s ways are above ours, our thoughts are not his thoughts. I believe the Bible to be true as are the words of Jesus, “You can enter God’s Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to hell is broad and its gate is wide for the many who choose that way. But the gateway to life is very narrow and the road is difficult, AND ONLY A FEW EVER FIND IT!” “I am THE way, THE truth, and THE life. NO ONE can come to the Father except through me.”

    There’s exclusivity in the message of the gospel. Universality is not anywhere in the bible, either directly or indirectly. Our “happy ending” story where everyone is saved in the end is simply not biblical, no matter how nice and inclusive it sounds. If everyone’s going there eventually, then it doesn’t matter what we do on this earth. That’s the world talking. That’s Satan getting at us and distorting the truth.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=657343051 Tana Schott

    That quotation: “… at that moment you’re actually putting God’s actions in submission to your reasoning.” (about 4:20) was confounding to me.  I heard quite frequently in my old circles that we should not question or doubt because it would lead to losing one’s faith.  Questioning and digging deeper was one step away from using our minds and reasoning – the very minds and reasoning God gave us not only for survival but for success in all areas of life. 

    Chan also assumes that all of his audience believe that the Bible is a literal, inerrant, God-breathed book.  Some of us, upon closer study have come to different conclusions while still being able to deeply draw from it and grow in our faith and Love of God.

    What I know is that I appreciate the conversations.  I know they bug some people for one reason or another, but they are like vitamins.  Long after the conversations have ended, I’m thinking and praying about it, doing my own reading and studying. 

    It is not all for naught.

  • http://www.jeromyj.com/mendingshift Jeromy

    To me, it is still through, because of, and in Christ…it just applies to every person versus a few people. Charlie, you are welcome to disagree. I may be wrong.

  • http://www.jeromyj.com/mendingshift Jeromy

    I agree, Dave. Who am I but someone speaking and sharing my view of God and the Mystery. These discussions are good and important. But even in what the potter reveals, we interpret though our selves, our culture and our reasoning. You do, I do, and Francis does.

  • http://www.jeromyj.com/mendingshift Jeromy

    I agree, Tana. In most religious cultures, we are not given permission to discuss and question certain things. This may not be spoken in some cases, but try it and see what happens. But these question and discussions are important, even if they get us to think about the “things we do not speak of”.

  • Anonymous

    Thank you for your thoughts on this, Jeromy. 

  • Anonymous

    To use this argument of picking scriptures that say “all will come” just leads to someone else picking scriptures that say “only the elect will come”.  Or that man has a choice or does not have a choice.  We need to understand this.  His ways ARE higher than our ways and His thoughts ARE higher than ours in intellect and purpose.  God does not exist for us but rather we exist for the glory and the purpose of God.  We look into a rather foggy mirror and hope we are seeing and understanding what we want to see and hear…and happen.  We all see and interpret things, I am sure, through our calling and our giftedness which we know differs from believer to believer.  That is what makes the Body so much fun….we are not all the same.  Thanks for your post.  We all need to be challenged to think.  Keep it up!

  • http://www.facebook.com/michael.w.morrell Michael William Morrell

    Jeromy, are you saying that God’s higher ways might involve some kind of…crazy love? That would just be uncanny. : )

  • http://www.jeromyj.com/mendingshift Jeromy

    and that is OK to not know where you fall. My wife is in the same boat and I still embrace a tremendous amount of mystery. But what’s cool, is in the same passage in Romans that says that all men and creation experience the consequences of Adams sin it goes on to say that all men and creation will experience the salvation and redemption of Jesus work on the cross…much more so!! (paraphrased). That his work on the cross has cosmic implications that doesn’t say you CAN BE loved and forgiven but that YOU ARE loved and forgiven. That it is not just potentially good news to some but IS good news to all. We all still come to the Father through Jesus. That OUR belief does not trigger God’s favor, but rather God’s favor rests on you already, do you believe it? Cause if so, it makes all the difference to you! You are no longer an enemy of God in your mind, but are indeed living in the God-reality of your already declared love and forgiveness.

  • http://www.jeromyj.com/mendingshift Jeromy

    Like the X-Men kind of uncanny?

  • Paul

    I guess if we live in a world where we can imply our own meaning to everything and interpret scripture to our culture all things become opinion and ultimately waste of time… Unless reality doesn’t bend to our view, or truth doesn’t change because we feel or believe a certain way. I would suggest reading a great book, “The Difficult Doctrine of the Love of God” and “Exegetical Fallacies”  I think it will be helpful with some of your interpretations and ideas. 

  • Hanna

    Like ur writing. I’ve struggled with understanding hell and how God could send people there.  But then I think that we are looking at the whole thing backwards. Everyone is already condemed to Hell, God stepped in and saved the day by providing a way of escape for everyone! See it? He is not the sender to Hell God, he is the savior God. Just a quick thought. Good luck with ur journey :)

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