A Mending Shift

a bird sings, not because if has an answer to give, but because it has a song to sing … this is my song

What’s the Worth of a Heavenly Earth?

If heaven was God being fully present with us here on earth, like in the garden, with a restored earth and heavens, would we still desire it? or not?

In other words, if eternity was spent with God on earth, and not a distant, other-dimensional, ethereal “heavenly” place somewhere out there beyond the blue, would it would worth it? or not?

Ask it another way: if it was God and God alone without all of the “heavenly” fixin’s — just earth, God, and us — would that be something we still would long for and desire? or not?

Interested in your thoughts and conversation.

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This entry was posted by on Thursday, July 10th, 2008 at 5:30 am and is filed under God, Kingdom of God, theology. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site.

About The Author

Jeromy Johnson
I live in Folsom, CA, with my wife, Jennifer, and three kids. I am surrounded by and cared for deeply by some great friends. Their love for me is truly a moonlit reflection of Papa's love, and for that, I am deeply blessed and grateful.

Comments

  • http://blog.graceroots.org Joel B.

    Hi there. I found your blog through a blog through blog kind of thing. :) Maybe we’ve interacted before, but I’m not sure. Anyway, in John 17 Jesus was praying and He said “this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.” I think in a sense, eternity is God and God alone – since it’s all about actually knowing Him – but yet I don’t think we can separate God from all His fixin’s. :)

  • http://mendingshift.wordpress.com Jeromy

    Hi Joel. Great verse. What I meant by “fixin’s” is the heavenly, pearly-gate, wingy stuff, not so much any of God’s fixin’s…just the “heavenly fixin’s. Is that what you were meaning? I hope this helps.

  • Daniel

    Honestly, God and His re-perfected creation sound pretty dang good. Just doesn’t get any better than that (as long as I can bring my wife). The pearly-gate, wingy stuff doesn’t do much for me especially since I’m not sure it’s too biblical.

  • http://blog.graceroots.org Joel B.

    I think I catch your drift a little better now. I guess in my more peaceful and blissful moments here on earth, it really ain’t all that bad… so I agree with Daniel, I don’t think there would be anything to complain about if we didn’t have the ‘heavenly’ elements when all is restored. :D

    Indeed the Bible does say there will be a new heaven and a new earth… so I’m not so sure eternity will be solely ‘heavenly.’

  • Chad

    Good thoughts, Jeromy. Are you thinking of heaven cause you have a new daughter? You sap :)

    I agree that the golden streets/pearly gates/soft, billowy cloud stuff is not what we are in for. I imagine first Christians who were so used to walking in sandals through tons of crap and mud when imagining what heaven would be like couldn’t think of a more awesome way of describing the indescribable than saying “streets of gold.” (the same can be said about the awfulness of hell, btw).

    I dont know what it will be like but it will be wonderful. What’s more is we have an eternity to fall into God. I think one thing we overlook is that just because we are in heaven does not mean we know God fully. Imagine what it will be like to just begin to know the Infinite and love that which IS Love in such close communion? I think that would be awesome even if we were walking through crap and mud.

    peace,
    Chad

  • http://mendingshift.wordpress.com Jeromy

    You guys bring up some good points. To me, the “where I am” isn’t at all an issue. The important thing is the “who I’m with”. Much like with my family, home is where my wife and kids are. Heaven is where God is. And it may be just like God to come down where we are and restore it with his presence. Let me ask you, do you think the Bible leaves enough room for a “heavenly earth” like described above?

    Chad, I like what you said about who cares if we are walking in crap as long as we are in the presence of God who is love.

  • http://www.doghouseministries.com Barbara

    Jeromy,
    Great thoughts… definitely make you go Huh? ..and tweek your brain. I do agree it’s not the where you are but the Who you are with. If God wants to be here or there, doesn’t change my desire to be with him.
    Thanks for the great thoughts! :)

  • http://mendingshift.wordpress.com Jeromy

    A little “Huh?” and brain-tweaking is a good thing. I pray we never stop having our brains tweaked by God where God causes us to go, Huh? and, Ahhhh!

  • http://unorthodoxology.blogspot.com David

    i really like earth, if only because it’s the only home i’ve ever known. i like to think that i’ll be able to grow zucchini in heaven, play with my son, make love to my wife and all enjoy all those other gifts of God.

    so, i kinda hope that heaven is here.

  • http://mendingshift.wordpress.com Jeromy

    David ~ Yea, so, I’m not sure if growing zucchini is my idea of heaven, but to each his own. I just can’t wait to taste a Margarita made by God!

  • Chad

    I heard that in heaven you can spill a Newcastle on your laptop and instead of your laptop melting it spawns a new one while topping off your spilled beer! Amazing!

  • http://mendingshift.wordpress.com Jeromy

    truly amazing/lol, so what happens in heaven when you laugh so hard you pee your pants?

  • Chad

    It turns to Bass Ale. Haven’t you read Tobit? Sheesh.

  • http://mendingshift.wordpress.com Jeromy

    Actually, the Tobit says it turns to Coors Light. Oh wait, never mind, that’s what Coors Light already is. My bad.

    (I have never been good working with the original languages)

  • Chad

    lol. But the bottles that turn blue is such a bright idea

  • http://unorthodoxology.blogspot.com David

    I just thought about how incredibly white my comment sounds. I can say that perhaps because i’ve never really known oppression and known what it’s like to not be able to imagine a world better than disenfranchisement at best and abuse at worst.

    Just a thought, that the idea of an other-worldly heaven might make sense to people who are more oppressed. And, then, we might think about the ways in which our lifestyles of consumerism contribute to that oppression. And then maybe think about ways in which we can bring equillibrium to those to paradoxical ways of life without be colonializing.

    Where I feel like I live some times in a heaven on earth (or at least that it’s possible) others live in a hell on earth, created by those of us in heaven.

    sorry, i’m taking a class on slavery and the holocaust, so this stuff is pretty heavy in my mind.

  • http://mendingshift.wordpress.com Jeromy

    David, I recently took a class on Christian Ethics and it too rocked my little world. You bring up a great perspective. I wonder how those who have suffered and are currently suffering from oppression and severe suffering (which we are not) here on earth might answer the original questions? I wonder if heaven was God being fully present with them here on earth, like in the garden, with a restored earth and heavens, if even they would still desire it? or not? I would LOVE to hear their perspective. My uneducated hunch says yes…what do you think?

    I am curious, and perhaps you have gained some insight through your class, if those suffering oppression and persecution have a real and deeper sense of God’s kingdom and “nearness”, though not in their circumstances per se, but internally, in the core of their being?

    And so, if heaven is more about God being fully present and in full relationship with us, then perhaps even for them it matters little WHERE heaven IS as much as it is WHO they are WITH. But perhaps the only language they have to imagine a God-fully-present-heaven is other-worldly language…which gives them hope beyond their circumstances.

    You also are making me think that when WE (as humans) try to create heaven here on earth, it is really messed up and comes at the cost of other people’s hell. But when God restores all things, it will be done right—for all.

  • Chad

    Great thoughts, David and insightful questions, Jeromy.

    While I was in Ethiopia I had some similar musings. I looked around at all the poverty and disease and filth and wondered “who do these people still have a smile? why are they still so friendly…and to someone like me of all people?” I asked a few of them and they responded: faith. In some mysterious way God was already present with them and they felt that nearness….a nearness that gave them hope that this too shall pass.

  • http://mendingshift.wordpress.com Jeromy

    Chad, you got me thinking that what you experienced in Ethiopia sounds very familiar. Sounds like Jesus’ words in the beatitudes just might have something to them after all:

    - “You’re blessed when you’re at the end of your rope. With less of you there is more of God and his rule.

    - “You’re blessed when you feel you’ve lost what is most dear to you. Only then can you be embraced by the One most dear to you.

    - “You’re blessed when you’re content with just who you are—no more, no less. That’s the moment you find yourselves proud owners of everything that can’t be bought.

    - “You’re blessed when you’ve worked up a good appetite for God. He’s food and drink in the best meal you’ll ever eat.

    - “You’re blessed when you care. At the moment of being ‘care-full,’ you find yourselves cared for.

    - “You’re blessed when you get your inside world—your mind and heart—put right. Then you can see God in the outside world.

    - “You’re blessed when you can show people how to cooperate instead of compete or fight. That’s when you discover who you really are, and your place in God’s family.

    - “You’re blessed when your commitment to God provokes persecution. The persecution drives you even deeper into God’s kingdom.

  • Chad

    What a great rendering of the Beattitudes. Thanks for sharing that.

  • http://www.writetools.wordpress.com writetools

    I think that it dosen’t matter what earthly or heavenly dimension it lands at. When you have truly experienced the love of God, all the other trappings do seem to fade away and pale in the awesome power of Christ. I have a favorite book, and recently I had the amazing opportunity to have coffee with it’s author. That experience of sitting and learning, sharing, askin questions, laughing…with her… far surpassed reading the book. I have no idea what heaven will be like, but I can only imagine… God created the wonders we live in here… can you imagine the wonder of the creator?

  • http://mendingshift.wordpress.com Jeromy

    I love what you said, to “imagine the wonder of the creator”…now that sounds like heaven!! What book and author, if you don’t mind me asking?

  • http://www.jefffrazee.com Jeff Frazee

    This is pretty much what I think it’s going to be… right? And YEAH, I can’t wait. Come, Lord, Soon!!!

  • http://unorthodoxology.blogspot.com David

    From what we are reading in this class, I get the sense that religion can operate in many different ways. For some, meaning fragments even while they root their responses in their faith tradition. For some, faith offers an eschatalogical hope that a better something exists, whether temporally or in a place beyond the map.

    I think what it has made me aware of is how little I would change about my everyday life in heaven. I know I should be thankful for this, but it also reminds me that my happiness often comes at the price of someone else’s oppression.

    I think oppression is so systemic in our culture that for some groups it may be difficult to conceive a way in which the current world can truly be redeemed, which is why the other-worldly heaven can be attractive and helpful in dealing with and confronting the now.

    I can’t say any of this authoritatiively though, because my social location is one of comfort and power, being a white male who grew up in the American South. I know nothing of the subject firsthand.

    I think what I’m confronting now is the small ways in which my own personal paradise here contributes to the personal hell of entire groups of people, be it with the impending ecological disasters or the fact that I buy my clothes at places that employ sweatshop labor or that I drink coffee and buy sugar at prices that mean somewhere, someone is getting the short end of the stick.

    Forgive the grimness, but I appreciate the relief valve of this conversation.

  • http://mendingshift.wordpress.com Jeromy

    I agree that we know nothing about oppression. Sure, we have “spiritual” and internal oppression (blah, blah) but not the deep, helpless, physical oppression that many have thrust upon them by others on a daily basis.

    No apologies for the grimness, I’ll take real over plastic any day. Relief-valve away! But somehow, even with the above “grimness”, I feel like you held back what you REALLY wanted to say!

  • http://unorthodoxology.blogspot.com David

    I think that might be the problem. For the first time in my life, I’m not sure what I really want to say. I posted on my blog the stuff I’m thinking about.

    You know that quote that we need to be the change we want to see in the world. Somehow, I think before I get there, I have to realize that I am the evil I see in this world.

  • http://unorthodoxology.blogspot.com David

    Oh and by the way, we’re starting up an aggregate and new content site called The Crowded Handbasket (there’s a post on my site about it). Would love it if you would be a part. It’s for the unorthodox, doubting, dissenting, progressive and like minded to share their thoughts or aggregate snippets of their posts, kind of a central hub for all of us. So, open invitation extended. :)

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